Mapping the Math Path

Welcome to From Carpool to College, a show for parents who are trying to get ahead or just keep their sanity while navigating the college planning landscape. Tara, Yes, I promise this is not going to be more than a thirty minute episode because it's something I don't like talking about. Okay, and when this coffee gets cold, we're done. Okay, we're going to talk about math. Ooh, I think I just threw up a little in. My mouth, says the English teacher and the humanities majors. But parents, we're going to talk about math sequence today because this is ugh. It's something that as a school counselor, I feel so critical. I feel critical? No, I feel critical? Now? How what do I feel? It is imperative? Yep? That do I feel critical of myself? Right now? That I feel critical? Maybe I should just refill the coffee. Parents, The sequence of courses in math can influence college acceptances. I know this sounds crazy, but it's true. So we are going to tease out the sequence of math courses offered in middle school and high school just to give you an overview of what you need to know. Because I've worked with many a student who had to limit their college applications due to what math they ended up with as a senior. And it all starts in middle school, I know. And when you say middle school, we know that some of our parents out there are parents of middle schoolers. And don't drive off the road if you're driving. But it is true, and nobody talks about this. Well, I don't want to say nobody, but parents are not really always thinking about why it matters, why it matters at the middle. School level, right, I know, I know they're not. And when I say nobody's talking about it'stry an interrupt, but I mean that your middle school math teachers aren't talking about it. Because they don't know, right, They don't know the implications of current level math placement as it pertains to college admissions. Why because they would be psychos if they were talking about college admissions. And it's it's almos. It's like you're going to really sit an eleven year old down and be like, bro, if you don't take algebraic No, Like it. Sounds crazy, but parents need to know. Right, that's the thing. But it's not talked about. And so although it is maybe not the most excess topic, it is something that you should definitely listen up. Yes, yes, So again we're not going to talk about this for more than another twenty minutes because it's a lot. We're going to give you a small bite. And again, if this is one of those topics that if I knew, then what I know now? Oh yeah. But in all things, let's first start off by saying that you have to get a firm handle on who your kid is and what their natural abilities are. If they are naturally leaning towards math, is their easy subject, Math is clean, They're not giving you fuss with getting their homework done, You don't have to worry about math. Then you know that's part of understanding what your kid's natural inclinations are. You also have to think about is your kid on grade level? So look at those standardized tests and see if they're at least on grade level. So you know, you're ruling out a cuple things. But let's talk about sequence. We're going to start. I don't even know where to start. Do we start in the beginning or do we work backwards from senior year? I think backwards. Okay, okay, we'll start backwards. So senior year in high school, your kids are if they decide to go to college. Remember you don't have to go to college. Okay, but even if you're going to a trade school, there're certainly math involved, especially in some trade schools carpentry, measurement, electricians. Okay, So there's no one's no one's safely escaping math. Right. So in twelfth grade for college bound kids in the fall, in like August September applications, you're in high mode here getting them submitted. And your high school transcript has grades nine, ten and eleven and twelve, and every one of those years your child will have a math course in it. If your child is a STEM kid, that's your science, technology, engineering math. Okay. If there are science inclined, your twelfth grade box in your transcript should have calculus or precalc. More. Really, they should have calculus if they want to be If they're engineering, and there's all different types of engineering. Of course, there's mechanical, there's electrical, there's sibyl I mean that's another I'll have a you know what, one of my work husbands is a professor of engineering. I'll have him on you met him, Oh, mom with the bow tie. We love him, So he can go through that's another episode. But your kid is playing with legos. Your kid is math inclined. Maybe mom and daddy you are math inclined and your kid inherited it. God bless you, God bless your kid. Awesomeness. So you want your kid to have CALC grade. In order to have calc in twelfth grade, you need to have pre calc in eleventh grade. In order for your kid. To have pre calc in eleventh grade, they have to have algebra two or trigonometry in tenth grade. In order for your kid to have Algebra two trig in tenth grade, they have to have geometry in ninth grade. That is a whole year ahead of what the national average core sequences. So in order to terminate with calculus as a senior, you must start high school in geometry, which means guess when your gremlin needs to take algebra middle school? Right? Right? So pre algebra and algebra is now seventh grade, eighth grade. Think about that. So it is important to have these conversations today because if you're if you have the opportunity to take those courses and it's appropriate, go for it. Yeah, if it's not like my kids, my youngest one Alex. He took algebra as an eighth creator, and out of Joey and Alex, Alex was more stemy than Joey. Joey's like my mini me with. His brain, Like he's very humanities and he's a wordsmith except when he opens up podcasts and uses the word critical wrong. But other than that, he's he's more he's the verbal guy. And Alex is was more stemy, and he likes he likes the cleanliness of math. It's simple. You either get the answer you don't. Yeah. So Alex took algebra in eighth grade, and and when he took the final exam for high school algebra in eighth grade, he failed it miserably. Was that COVID year? Though it was a COVID year? Was it a COVID year? Eighth grade? It was right before, it was right before, so not yet it didn't hit the fan yet. Okay, So this was normal life, Okay. Life as we knew it. And I was so happy that he failed it because I knew he was just kind of breezing through it and going through the motions even though he was getting a's and b's in algebra in eighth grade. He could not pass that final exam, so he ended up taking honors algebra in ninth grade, geometry in tenth grade, Algebra two trig in eleventh grade, and he finished. I wanted him to do precalc because he wanted to be a business major, and business majors should be having precalc on the transcript. I had him in pre calc and he didn't do so hot, so we got him out of there and put him in prob and stats. Oh okay, yeah, so calculus is not a graduation requirement in order to graduate. It's just that in order to apply to certain schools, apply to certain program programs in colleges, Okay, you'll need to have CALC or pre CALC on the transcript. So some business schools require CALC on the high school transcript, right, which who's thinking of that? Yeah? Right. So I've had students who standard issue math exactly grade level maybe a little ahead where they should be, typically ninth grade algebra, and by the time they're wrangling through high school, they realize, oh my gosh, you know, I'm taking algebra, but I really want CALCU on my high school transcript. Yeah, But by the time it hits them it's a little late. So a lot of students I see this all the time, and my heart breaks for them because they end up doubling up in math for a year. So if your kid is in ninth grade and taking algebra, they could take tenth grade geometry and algebra two. So there is an opportunity because geometry is a different it's non algebraic, you can double up in that. So I do see that. I see a lot of kids. But think about that for a second. The kids who may have to take that are the kids who may not have been in those higher level classes to be in with So you're giving maybe the kid who's not super strong in math more math to do terrible. I hate it, I know, I know. So let's talk about that as parents, because we have for me personally, you know, I have one who is not a problem with math, and the other one was like, get me out of here. Actually they both ended up getting me out of here. Maybe they are a chip off who By the way, I was, I diagnosed myself in graduate school of having dyscalcula. As I learned about all the different. Disabilities and just being a school counselor, you have to there's so many different classes that we take in different metrics, and as I'm going through it, I'm like, oh. Is this why I always sucked at math? Because I have dyscalcula. Awesome? Great, So that's just and I'm bringing that up parents because there's a really good chance parents, if we struggled with something academically. I'm just saying some of that can be passed on to your kid and give them grace with its, just have patience with them. But saying that, let's get back to the possibilities here. So we're talking about math sequence, we're talking about why it's important with college admissions. Here's another dirty here's another dirty PSAT SAT ACT. Now how you now, because we work with this in our private practice, not every school is going to require to remind the parents where they can go to see if a school is test. Optional or not. You're fair test dot Org right, the fair test dot Org. You could see if schools are test option or not. But some schools are requiring PSAT SAT or ACT. Well. PSAT is really the preliminary but it's offered mostly with tenth grade. It starts and it's a tenth grade exam which means it's going to have algebra and geometry and potentially some Algebra two and trigonometry. So those students who in middle school had algebra, who are already advanced, those are the kids who are going to do really well on the math for the PSAT because they have more exposure to math because they were advanced. And same with SAT. So when you if you're considering, oh gosh, you know, I'm gonna have my kid take the SAT or the ACT or both, I recommend taking a bite of both because they're both different flavors of tests. That one's an achievement test, one's an aptitude test. They're written differently. Definitely things you are very specific to your kid, and they're the way their brain is wired. But if you, oh see, I just totally lost my train of thought because I was watching you drink your coffee and that you know what I was thinking about. TIERR is your coffee cold? It is? And that's the barometer that I'm talking too much about it. So, but I do want to talk about the how the sequence of math dovetails with PSAT, SAT and ACT performance. So your test prep may be a little more rigorous for a kid who started ninth grade in algebra because theoretically you areugh, I I want to throw up in my mouth. But you're competing against other students who started out in geometry or some gremlins had algebra and geometry in middle school. Yes, right, yes, so they're finishing with calc three yeah, or they're going to the community college to take an advance like a multivariate or a linear math course that's like fancy pants, like unbelievably challenging. Right, But there are other math courses like discrete math, statistics, prop and stats that are non algebra based. If your kid's not an algebra kid, there's lots, there's lots of possibilities. But we were talking about something off Mike earlier. Do you remember what we were talking about. We talked about a lot of things life, but we were talking about math and placement. Yeah, and going into high school. You're saying, right, and like when you're selecting courses, level of courses. Oh, yes, yes, yes, Okay, So we're saying, like this question comes up all the time, but just you know, is it better to take a class that is a little bit more challenging for the student? Right? Higher level class where they might not do as well in right versus a lower level class where they score an easy A plus. Right, especially at the high school level, comes up all the time, comes up all the time. So it's the answer there is no answer, Well, there are, but there are shades of answers. So the question is it's like chicken and egg. Is it better to take and let's just stick with math. Is it better to take a higher level course and get a lower grade than to take an easier course and get the easya? So let's talk about the consequences. Well, let's talk about easya. Is an A ever easy? What are your kids' work habits? They could be bored to tears and not hands in work and get a crappy grade in an easy class. Yeah, so, I mean I've seen it. I've seen you know, the Jeff's Piccolis of the world just goes through no matter what they do, whether they were in an easy class or a hard class. Right, you know, Hey, it's party time, you know. So that And for those of you who didn't get the Jeff's Pecoli reference, I'm old, I am old, and Jeff's Piccolei is a character who's like the quintessential slacker played by Sean Penn and it's the movie is fast times original on high. Hopefully we're not infringing on any copyrights. I don't think so. I don't think so either. In any event, think about your kid, has your kid? Is your kid going to rise to the occasion maybe, or if they're over their head, are they going to get Is it better to get a C in algebra honors or a B in grade level algebra? What's really the best is to make sure that they keep the algebra so when it comes to algebra two time when they're a junior, that they actually remember the algebra and they don't tank junior year if they're on the standard track. So lots of variables. I had a client just the other day and the client put himself in an AP course that he didn't qualify for. Okay, and they but he won't wavered it yeah waved in ye sorry no yeah w ai now we're waving goodbye w av. She's so he ended up getting like c's and a D in the AP class and it would have been better for him just to stick with standard physics. Very often they don't have honors physics for some reason. So that's just a weird thing. I don't know, I see it all the time. But for him now, his GPA is gonna take a hit. And GPA is important, especially when it comes to high school graduation. If your school still ranks, yes you're getting a weight a GPA for the harder classes, but it kind of if you get it A in an honors class and A in a standard class. Yes, the honors is going to get more credit. But I also see, like we have a program in Jersey called NJ Stars, and you know, your GPA can qualify you for National Honor Society. Your GPA can can bolster your rank. So your GPA is important, and you're also showing great academic fitness. So really there's I really tend to think it depends on the kid. It depends on your kid whether or not you should rise to the occasion and take the harder class. You need to also think about how much time they have, how much time demand is that class going to take. I can think personally back in the old days when the pterodactyls flew over and I was in high school, I was put into a very high level I don't even remember I think it was ap English course, and I was much more interested in being social in high school, if you could imagine. Never So I remember going into that class and my parents, you know, I'm first generation in college. My parents were involved, but they weren't really knowledgeable about the infrastructure of American high school and academia and you know post secondary for sure, and that knew nothing about it. So I relied heavily on like my friends and my school counselor to figure out class work. And it really wasn't important to me anyway, frankly. So I was in this class with all these smart kids, and I'm like, I don't belong here, and but I did, but I didn't want to work that hard. So a lot of the higher level courses, aside from math, may be more time demanding as opposed to whether your kid could handle it intellectually. When it comes to math, though, really mastering the material and remembering the material is very important. I would rather see a kid be the Queen of algebra than just like skate by. I would rather see the King of geometry than the Prince of geometry. And if that means a lower level class to do it, you may not get through the entire curriculum with a slower class, but you'll master it and you'll remember it for the placement test that you're going to have to take when you're in college. Because whether you take the SAT or ACT, let's say those scores go nowhere, you decide not to send them at your dirty little secret, I tell the kids, when you're in college, you're still going to have to take a placement test. You still have to prove to the college that you are college ready in math and college ready in your writing abilities and sometimes world language. They'll have you take a placement test to like the sorting hat I tell the kids. So math sequence is critical on all those different levels that you need to be the queen or king of algebra for sure, and where you terminate twelfth grade can make a difference of what major you can apply to directly from school, right, Business majors and STEM majors. For sure, for sure. So it's kind of grim, Yeah, it is. I think the most frustrating part of that is that the communication you know in the schools at the lower level, it's really sometimes not there. Yeah. But in defense of like middle school teachers, absolutely we don't. We both teach middle you know, like we're middle school. We know middle school, right, And to say, like to an eleven year old, this is going to impact college in malpractice. Yeah, and it's and it's no fault of the teachers, right or the counselors. But I just think overall the whole system, right, Yeah, there should be a little bit more transparency and what's needed in order to meet that end goal. Right, But really the end goal is you want your kid to graduate high school, yeah, right. You want your kid to thrive and learn and engage in learning and find their jam, whether it's stem or the humanities or skills trades, computer programming, building, like, there's so many different things nurturing and caring for others, like what's their jam? But just know that in some career pathways, your kid will be called to task with math. And if you don't hit it in high school, it's okay, of course, it's okay. But prepare yourself that your kid may need to take non credit bearing courses in college that will be an added expense and add time to your four year degree. So now your four year degree, if your kid wasn't the Queen of algebra and didn't do well on the placement test. Your kid may go into a non credit class first semester, maybe second semester, and could not apply to the business school until three semesters of credit bearing math. So now you've added your bachelor's degree that was originally four years just turned into a six year degree. Yeah. Quick question for those parents who are sitting there listening. And soiling themselves with that. No, but they're wondering, you know, because this thought came into my mind. Are high school students ever allowed to jump to that next level by incorporating a summer program, some sort of summer school math that will not as remedial but like credit bring Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh for sure. Okay, absolutely, and good luck convincing your kid to spend the summer in a math class. Right, this is the catch. We want our kids, we want our kids to. Be authentic, we want our kids to be kids. Yeah, and there are certain academic expectations when it comes to keeping the end in mind. And it is not the end of the world that your kid is going to be a semester behind or a year behind. It's fine, but just no. The workaround, there's a work around for everything. The workaround could be a summer class at independent school over the summer that you just pay three thousand dollars for just in pennies. I know Terra's eyebrows. You just hit the ceiling. No, it's probably about two thousand. Okay, Okay, they're still up there. So yes, you could do that. Or you just stay on track and do your thing and you don't end with pre calculus, you end with algebra two trig you take statistics fine, or maybe you don't take a math your senior year whatever. Everyone's mathjam is different, but as you enter college, different programs will have different math requirements that have the expectation that you have exposure and mastery of a certain math pathway before you got there, and you may have to remediate and it may cost you more money. It may cost you an extra year or an extra semester of college or a summer bridge program like a semester before. You go to college. You got to say that, really it's popular with I've seen that with University of Delaware this year, and I've seen it with Clemson and Penn State, these summer bridge programs where it's like, hey, we want to accept you, but we need you to take the summer Bridge program because you're writing and your math is just shy of where we want you to be, because we want you to be successful in our school and it's cool. We have faith in you and we're gonna invest in you and you're gonna invest in us. But this is where we need you to be to keep the pace, because we don't want you here more than four years. Okay, So no credits for those so no, some some schools do, but usually the remedials do not. If it's a high school level course, they're not going to issue college credit for that. Yeah. And sometimes that's tied to financially too. You may have to pay out of pocket for that. So you know, I don't like surprises, so this is this uncomfortable math sequence episode is to stave the surprise, right, Yeah, because we don't like surprises. Our wallets don't like surprises. Our kids kind of like surprises, but their kids and their naive yeah yeah, blessed, sure, bless them. So I hope Tara didn't scare you too much because I know you have a middle schooler. Yeah, and it's it is very helpful just to know these things as you try to make your way through to the next level. Yeah, definitely, and so thanks parents for tuning in with us talking about math. We'll think about a catchy title for this after. I was thinking of that Jay Giles song love Stinks, He Loves Stinks and Hitdle the fish in the video right like math stinks. Yeah, like math stinks. I think isn't there a Jamie Buffett. Song about that? There might be, like math sucks. I don't know, I think there is. We'll have to look it up anyway. Well, we're not going to infringe on any copyrights, no, but we do want to thank you for tuning in to From Carpool to College. I'm Tracy Amadeo Tara Harritz and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, we'd love for you to be a part of our growing community. Please share and follow our show. For those who want to support us further, join our Patreon site here. Support helps us create high quality content and great episodes. Plus, our Patreon members get exclusive perks like bonus episodes, early access, and behind the scenes content that we think you're just. Going to love and now for some legal stuff. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational entertainment purposes only, and it's provided as is, with no guarantee of accuracy, completeness, timeliness, or outcomes. I could keep going, but I will spare you, and I will post this entire legal disclaimer on our website www. Dot Academic MENTORINGLLC dot com under podcast. Tara and I are so glad you joined us today on from carpool to College. See you next time. Something like that. Yeah, done's good, Okay, Chris, make that pretty please? Pretty please? Make it pretty please? M hm. Now we're waving goodbye. W a v oh, she's