From Points to Pointers: Shifting the Grading Paradigm - Control+Shift+Lead

Are you a school leader striving for excellence? Do you crave actionable strategies and fresh perspectives to navigate the challenges of education today? Get ready to take charge. This is Control, Shift Lead, giving you something to control, something to shift your thinking, and something concrete to help you lead your school. With Jim Witchman of Inspired Edification, and Adam Bush of AWB Education, your journey to empowered leadership starts now. All right, welcome, Welcome to January. This is crazy, first show of twenty twenty six. Jim, here we go. We've been doing this now a year. It's nuts. But man, is January. It's crazy. It's January. I mean I've already been on the road working in West Virginia and Virginia talking with a lot of people. I got to tell you, I love snow, but I like it for afar. Don't want to competed on my days. Yeah, that's it's been something already this year. It's been although it's been on the weekend, so we've lucked out. We haven't missed any time. We're not already worried about makeup days or anything. Yeah, I know a few school districts maybe didn't get that lucky, but but mine so far. But hey, happy new year, good to see you again, and I'm excited about our show today. It's it's it's great got energy coming back to the hallways with everybody here as kids are coming back from a break and we're just getting into that that semester for some of us, or getting ready to start, depending on when you could send. It's kind of crazy how that works. What I like about it is, you know, we talked about our last segment about with Jim didtrill of making sure our stuff leaves with energy h And I don't know if everybody saw that one, but what I did notice is people started sending me photos and examples of what they're doing from from the tree cart and everything from the dressing and my favorite though is in all the dress up days. It's a great this is a great lesson too. I don't think we're going to talk about it here, but you know, the six seven, the six to seven kind of thing. I've seen some schools where they're like, would you want me to call your mom? And then I saw when the adults owned it and took it from the kids. Yeah, kids were like, I'm out. I wasn't cool anymore. It was it was So what was cool is seeing this shift and the energy from the draining of the adults in there. So I think a lot of that is what we're talking about. And and now we're talking about let's rock and roll with the shift coming in here. And we've got one of the gurus, I would say, not only does he work for the prestigious University of Northern Iowa. That's right, got, that's right, go panthers, That's where my education started. When it comes to my first degree, you've got somebody pretty specially here, Adam, who we got here? I'll tell you what you're not joking. It's a heavy hitter. I mean, we're gonna kick off this new year with a heavy hitter, and that is doctor Matt Townsley. Uh. Doctor Townsley is an associate professor of Educational leaders at you and I a former district administrator. I believe twenty seventeen Central Office Administrator of the Year. Do I have that year ride, doctor Townsley? That's I thought. I'm an author of a book making Grades Matter. So if you've ever felt like your grading system doesn't quite reflect what your students actually know, we got your guy. We got your guy that you need to talk to right here. So welcome at Welcome to the show. We appreciate you hopping on. Yeah, thanks for the kind of introduction. Well, what a privilege is to be on the first episode of twenty twenty six. Ye, Jim, you're flattering me with the. You and I sweatshirt there, Budy, that's awesome, thank you. Yeah, we're talking before the show. I bet that sweatshirt's about as old as the first as long as we've known each other, Jim, Like it's been a while. I can't I don't know how many years it's been that we've known each other, but I love the look. It's very fresh and retro at the same time. Good time. It looks good on you. Jim. Well, nineteen ninety two was a couple of years ago, all. Right, maybe maybe not, maybe not, but you know, yeah, yeah, good stuff. Mine would have been ninety six, so to be my first U and I sweatshirt. So a little bit later, a little bit later, I. Believe there hasn't been one episode where I wasn't the oldest on the show. Ada'm so well yeah, yeah, and you're you're usually pretty good about getting our guests, So maybe you need to start working on that one. Maybe that should be your goal for February. I can do that. I do that. I'm happy and thankful that doctor Town's or a ka Matt, He's able to join us tonight because when you think about how his brain works and how he sees the pictures, and I go back to making grades matter, and Adam, you touched on this a little bit with the what is the purpose of grid? What is the purpose of that marketing? And then I go think back to and you don't have to go back very far where people would teachers would ask kids to bring in clean X boxes for extra credit points. That's back when Matt had hair. Yeah, and then and then yeah, you just those little things that are just like that isn't what the great is. Yeah, and we lose sight. So tonight, ladies and gentlemen, hang in there with us, because we got something very special, very special tonight. Well before we kick into it, Doctor Towns, they give our listeners a quick I know I gave a quick introduction, it gave the accolades, but tell us a little bit more about who you truly are. Who are we going to listen to tonight and why does this topic mean so much to you? Yeah, I just when I was a high school math teacher, I was always asking questions in the hallway of my colleagues. You know, how many points do you make homework worth? How much do you take off for late work? And as it turns out, I mean, those were natural questions to ask. But as I started really to think more deeply about it, what I realized is they were the wrong questions to ask, because I was asking all of these questions all about compliance and how do. You use grades as carrots and sticks? And to make a long story short, when I went to a math teacher's conference one year State of Iowa Math Teachers Conference shout out to the Iowa Council of Teachers of Mathematics. There I learned that maybe there's a different way of thinking about grades and that really, honestly, I mean, I wasn't like, you know, gonna quit teaching or anything like that, but it really was a professional game changer for me to go there and to that conference and just to realize that maybe that one breakout session that you know, every administrator hopes that they send their teacher to just has a groundbreaking, like thought provoking, you know, gonna come back and light the world on fire. That's what that was for me. And so I went from that teacher that just you know, taught based upon points, percentages and tried to hold kids accountable based upon the grade book to really thinking more about grading being communication and about feedback being for feedback sake, not just for number's sake. And long story short, went into administration and we did some really fantastic things in soul in Iowa. We didn't do everything right, but I think we did some great stuff. I think that's maybe how Jim and I really did get connected in a little small pool known as Iowa and educational leadership. Back in the day. I had some great stuff. There, and then in twenty eighteen made a transition to here at the University of Northern Iowa, teaching school leaders, principals, superintendents, doctoral students, all that fun stuff. And if there's one thing I'd get up in the morning and stay up late for at night, Adam and Jim, it's to talk about people about this thing called grading. I think there's just. A few of us in the world that geek out about this and so I don't know, maybe maybe maybe more than just a few, but that's right. I love about education. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. So thanks for the invite to be a part of this important conversation today. Absolutely tell our viewers that we are actually recording this at n nine pm Central times. So yeah, and he's still got the energy. He's not lying. He's fueled on water boys, nothing else, just water. Well, I'll tell you what that is as good of an intro as we can get. And I just can't wait to see what we're going to get out of you here tonight. So before we get to our our control segment, we're going to take a quick commercial break and pay a couple of bills and we're going to be right back as we shift into that control. So hang on, we'll be right back as we learn more from doctor at Townsley. Welcome back everyone. I got to tell you that opening segment, Doctor Townsley is definitely bringing the energy, but we're going to jump right into it. Before we get off on tangents and so forth, we're going to talk about the control of our control, Schift, Lead and education, especially in January. It often brings new mandates or new ideas or state testing. I hear a lot of people talking about testing, test test tests, you know, and things that we can't change, but we want to focus on the things that really do matter. So, hey, Matt, when we look at the classroom assessments through the lens of our work, what is the one practical thing teachers or principles can really control with all this? Yeah, yeah, great questions, Jivan. You know what like state testing, Man, it's just like one of those things we can talk a whole podcast, good bad, otherwise not fun. Well, I think about things that a principle teacher can actually like control within their purview. The first thing that comes to mind is the idea of redos, retakes and reassessment. Hear me out for just a minute, guys. You owe every educator watching or listening believes that students learn at different rates and different paces. They just do, right, story everybody Like. I've asked that question to thousands of educators and no one has pulled me by my bow tie afterwards and said, well, actually, talented, let me tell you about this class of twenty four and they all learn at the same pace. Yeah. Never nobody. So if we really believe that kids learn. At different rates and different paces, then we owe it to them. Whether I'm an individual classroom teacher just in control of my classroom, or I'm a building administrator and I can do a whole lot of things even without having to ask for permission from district office or the school board. It's to provide more opportunities for kids to redo and retake. And by the way, there's some bad ways to do this, like unlimited. You know, just hey, come in and try Form B will change the number. It's five minutes after you get for May back, Like, don't do that, but just start the. Conversation in your classroom in your school about, Hey, do we believe that kids learn at different rates in different places? Yes? We do. So what does that mean for us in Pe? What does that mean for us in art? What does that mean for us in fifth grade? Right? And I think most teachers I know are willing to talk about that. Now it's the details of how many times should allowed to reassess? What do they have to do between for MAY and Form B. What do they do if they go down on Form B compared to Form do they redo the whole for may or is it just a specific standard or a learning target. What if it's a big essay they have to write a brand new essay, do they revise the essay? I mean, there's a whole bunch of implementation details we can talk about. But let's start the conversation. And I know Jim's a big fan, and let's affirm those teachers in our school that are already thinking positively positively about this, and let's affirm them. Let's pat them on the back at a staff being, Let's highlight that teacher who's like, I've been doing this for the past five years and the world hasn't ended, and more kids in my class are motivated and learning at a high level. So that other teacher in the staff beings like I didn't even know that missus Johnson has been doing that for the past five years. Let's freaking go. And if you're an individual classroom teacher, give it a try. Throw it out there, say hey, how many do you think you could do better if we were to try this again? And I bet there's some students in every single class we're just like, yeah, I give it a try. Jim, you've tried this stuff. You've done this stuff. You're drinking the reassessment kool aid. I know it? Which man I am? I am? Well, here's the thing. I put on my phone to get downtown Cedar Falls. I put on my mat Burks I put on there. How do I get the Burks? It gives me five different routes to go all get me back to Burke. It might be three hours, it might be two and a half hours, it might be an hour forty five. I can avoid the interstate. I can avoid a lot of things train tracks, or pay tolls or whatever it is. We believe that we do it every day, but when it comes to student learning, we think it has to be done at a certain time because we can't manage it or the cases. I believe the numbers thirty six thirty six weeks kids have to learn. So let me ask you this question. When people that you've come across struggle with the concept, is it because the way it was introduced them, or because you know, like maybe the policy is your PLC set up a redo policy which then throws everything off. Because we have kids all over the place, do the teachers truly know what it looks like when a kid masters meets what it obtains the standard, do they know what the actual work looks like or the one hundred percent relying on a point and percentage? Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean you definitely want that first one. I think. I mean, here's the thing, though, Jim, even in a school where the teachers may not yet be teaching and assessing the standards, we can still do this redo and retake thing. It's not gonna be as good, right, It's not gonna be as good. And so what I think you're talking about there is, Jim, is where we want to go though we're not redoing, retaking, reassessing like a test or an essay. And thanks for helping me out here thinking through that. It's really more about the specific standard, learning target or skill. That's what the focus of that reassessment or that read you or that retakes all about. And I think that could also kind of take some of the maybe the frustration or the myths, the misunderstanding behind it is. It's because it's about the skill, Like do you believe that kid can show you in time that they have a better understanding of that skill, that standard whatever? Heck yeah they can. Heck yeah, that's exactly what it to be. I see it all about, So go ahead, dat. Well yeah, no, I was just gonna say, but I think the key here and both of you were talking about this. You're talking about having a plan. Right, It's not just the free will at a whim like, oh no, no, no, there's a plan to this. It's a it's a POC conversation, or it's a grade level conversation, or it's a building conversation, like there's a plan to do that, because typically the biggest piece of negative feedback I get from staff is that it's the you know, I'm a secondary teacher in the end of the semesters Friday, and now I'm going to be up until three am Thursday morning correcting all these papers because I had all these kids just dump all this work on me on the last day. And that's you're right, that part sucks. That's hard if we set up that type of a culture where we allow that to happen. But again, the plan is the key there. What are we as a as a team willing to do to give kids an opportunity to show more evidence? Yeah, it can't You're right, it can't be a free for all and there has to be some meaningful cutoff. Now in the real world, I mean in the in the ideal world, it's like Jim, Adam and Matt like going back and reconciling those you know bs we got in us history in high school you're and years ago. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, as Jim mentioned, within those thirty six weeks or that nine week quarter, or that eighteen week semester or trimester or whatever. How can we honor the fact that kids learn. At different rates in different paces, And there's got to be some very specific, you know, corrective instructional activities that students go through between their first attempt and their second attempt. I mean, that's just like you know, Benjamin Bloom's theory of mastery learning back in the day talked about that, and you know, way back in the day. It's just applying some of those concepts today as we think about redos and retakes and what that means for us as a classroom setting. I mean, here's the thing, right, Like I passed my driver's license test the first time. All right, Now, maybe somebody out there watched it, didn't If you fail the driver's license test. It's silly just to fail the driver's license test. Walk out the back door, walk in the front door, and try again. The best thing to do is to go home, study, come back and try it again. We want to create that same type of environment in our classrooms. I'm pretty sure in the eighties I had to set out a day before I could take my permit test again, I think so. So that was so this is not new we're talking about. They were already on the right then and there. That's right relearning moment right there. Yeah, literally, did I know that? Actually opening the manual was very helpful. So here's why I talk in this control thing. I hear, Oh, this is wonderful. There's a couple of things I'm grasping on the control just briefly, if I get it right. One, think about the purpose of why we're doing it. We want our kids to learn the information. We want them to learn the information. So that's not that we can control that part of it. And here's the other thing we control. If this is something of interest and Adam is going to get into this later on, if this is something of interest, there's three people right here where you can reach out, and we're going to help. I know, I know that Matt will drop everything if someone has any kind of interesting You saw the energy, We see the energy tonight, and the same with with Adam and I. So there's no one has to do this alone and we could do it in a meaningful, manageable and tangible way to do that, that's great, Yes, great, I love that. All Right, now we're back and it is time for the shift portion of our show. This is that part where we challenge the status quo a little bit. Matt, So your entire philosophy on grading it really does require a massive mind shift for some people, that mindset shift from a points chasing culture to a learning focused culture. So why is this shift so difficult for some of us? Yeah, great question here, Adam, and is I think about, you know, points chasing to learning focused? I think I want to make sure I attribute it to the right person. I think it's Sue brook Carton order for articles kind of reframe this as. Moving from earning to learning. You know, all about the classroom of the currency being about point accumulation to a classroom. What's really more focused on learning? Well, I think first of all, there's just a certain level of that goes along with point accumulation, right, Like that's if you're to ask any parent today, they probably did their homework assignments, or you know, brought the extra credit clean xbox in that Jim was talking about earlier, because it's points. Like I used to joke in my classroom, there were probably some families if I said bring in a whole case of paper from Costco or Staples, reams and realms and reams of paper for extra credit, or a whole case of Kleenex boxes, they would have brought five of them, right, And there's. Some families that we know couldn't. And that's just what's so crazy about it, right, And so there's this culture that we're working against that I'll do anything to get the points, even if they have nothing to do with learning. And I think, honestly, if I'm to look at myself, I was a part of that problem. Right. I used to emphasize to my students early on, like, oh, you should do this project or you should do this assignment because it's worth a lot of points. Hey this one's worth one hundred, or hey this one's worth seventy five, or you know what that one's worth. Just five or talking with that at. Parent teacher conferences, I would tell them like, well make sure they do this one coming up because it's worth a lot of points, right, And so I was a part of that points based culture. That's yeah, it's prevalent in school. So I fully understand where we're coming from here. But whether we like it or not, there's good things and bad things about no child left behind and every student succeeds act. But the thing I like about is it's focused on what do our kids know and not yet know? And I think as we now have a basis these standards, right, Jim was talking about that earlier. Now we know what every kid should be learning in algebra one or seventh grade social studies, and so it just makes sense for us to teach those standards or learning targets and assess those learning targets and a grade based upon those. And so it's like we now have this this like more fine grained thing learning goal we can now point to and say this is what we're going to utilize to determin and if a student is learning at a high level in this class. And we can point to those very specific skills standards, learning targets, competencies, whatever the act you want to call them. In your school, they're there. The states say we got to teach them, we might as well assess and great upon them. Let's go. I love it. Here's what I love about this too. So people are like, I used to run into this when we first started having these conversations. Well, I don't know how to create a formative assessment or whatever the case is. Like wait a second here, So you have your standard and you have a aspect of it. Maybe it's called a learning target. I can whatever you want to call it, and so you maybe put it on the board to where the case is everything we ask our kid to do should be talking about that learning target. And if that's true, we don't have to create anything. We just got to walk around and monitor and see what the word they're struggling with and what they have right and what part they're learning and what part they don't, and we're measuring against the standard. I mean it's not quite that easy, but it is. You don't have to create more work. It's like be the create the right work and then you don't create more work with that. And then when you had that parent teacher conference, like you were talking about what yours was. Oh my god, you took me to remember opening up the Red Book and then they'd say their kid's name and you would look at the numbers on that Red Book. Try tell me how you don't know my kid by telling me you don't know my kid by looking across at that. But you standing in the right class. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, well I think that's part of it, like knowing the kid. That's really what you're talking about there. Yeah, you know, when we don't have exactly what it is we're trying to teach, and then what it is we're trying to learn, and then what it is we're trying to provide communication back to parents on how they learned. If we don't know that, we don't truly know the child. And it's kind of funny today we are having a conversation is about something different, but it's an an all team meeting, and we were struggling a little bit with the kid. Oh that we're trying to come up with what's the best support for a kid moving forward? Right, and we have all of these ideas and it was I'm gonna give her credit for because I love the line too. It's my estaul instructional coach Melissa Grin said's her name that works with me, And she said, you know what, we don't know exactly where this kid is. Heck, this kid might not be proficient at lunch. We don't know, like, we don't have a grade for this kid everywhere, we don't have an understanding of him. We've got to find that part out before we can truly understand what the next step is. And I mean the grading piece. A lot of times we just get so focused on academic piece, but it's the whole child. Do we truly understand how we're all developing that whole child so that that part's really cool to. Hear hear me out, Like, I mean, here's the thing, Right, we've all been to the doctor's office. We've all taken our loved ones to the doctor's office. I mean, here's the thing. What if we went to the doctor's office and then we you know, they say all right, all done, Jim, all done, Adam, all done, Matt, like you're a eighty five point six percent health We'd. Be like, what are you talking about? Right? Like, what are you talking about? Or if you take your vehicle to the mechanic and they're like, well, you're you know, your Toyota Corolla is an eighty three point two percent. You'd be like, what in the X is going on around here? No? Like, and you're late for the appointment. So now it's in seventy two percent. No, right, that's right. That's right. Can I just bring it in like soil filter with that bring it up to ninety yep? But the mechanic gives you a very detailed, you know, inspection, right, like, hey, here's how well your your brakes are, Here's how well your battery is. Like they give you that detailed level, like that detailed information about your vehicle. That's what you know. Standards based grading, standards reference grading is all about, is having that same level of detail in our communication, except it's not about breaks and batteries anymore. It's about you know, citing textual evidence and main idea. In English class, that's really this big shift from going from earning to all about learning that. So I was learning those standards and that stuff. Oneful feeling that I'm going to tell you right now, I'm stealing that and I'm going to use it. It might even be tomorrow, like Okay, we're gonna do a twenty one point inspection on the on the grating for this kid. Oh, that's how we're going to provide that feedback. That's that's amazing because that makes sense to me. I get that every time I get in for an oil change. Right, That's that's. Think about it like this. We talk about interventions a lot, and it's hard to diagnose. So because we want when you go to a doctor, they diagnose, prescribe, and they monitor. Right, So we go into a student and we know what they're struggling, but we don't know what it is. We just keep pouring water in your bucket. But we got to figure out where the hole is. Let it. Figure out where the bottom hole is, give an intervention there, prescribe fill that hole. Now we go up to the next hole or whatever the case is. We don't do that because we're looking for that silver bowlt whatever the case is, what they need. Whereas you're talking about don't bring in any more clinics boxes or put your time and energy in the one with the most points. Figure out what the child needs and which both of you are saying the same thing, and that is lean into that spot. I wonder if where our struggles are if we shift our thinking to finding the hole of the bucket and then and that's what the purpose of an intervention is to get into be able to get to the standard and so forth, what it defined and what it looks like and so forth. We can get to that level. And I know they're just struggles, but it's not a quick and easy thing. But if we can at lys start shifting that step out of our comfort zonely Adam kind of point it out a little bit, then all of a sudden, Wow, we we got that twenty one point inspection. We can kind of figure it out. And what's going to happen is people are going to want to keep going back to that teacher because just the same reason why I want to go to Heartland Tire for my car. They give me that information and they know me as Jim Witchmand because they're putting in a lot of cars there. But CHI can trust that it's honest because they've proven it to you. They're going to give you the straight answer. That's the same give me teacher, Yeah, we're going to give me a focusing on learning, not just. Yep, yep. They're not gonna give me the percentage. They're going to tell me specifically what it is. You got it. Well, that's a big pivot, I know for a lot of us too, especially It's not about completion. It's not about an event, you know that all we have a test. No, it's about the assessment of learning. It's evidence of how we're progressing towards those standards. That is quite a shift. It's a very necessary one. When Matt great one. Yeah, oh, I'll tell you what. It just feels like equity and clarity for all of our kids, every single kid in that building. I just love it. Well, let's stick around. We've still got our lead segment coming up. And we got even more from doctor Matt Townsley here on Control Shift Lead. So hang on everybody, we'll be right back after this short commercial break. We're back for a final section Control Shift Lead. And I gotta tell you it's been high energy. And again we're talking like we're posting nine pm on Central, so this is actually amazing in a cold January night, So this is crazy with that. Hey, hey, Matt, this is kind of for our administrators. This section of lead is for administrators, teacher leaders. As we come around, maybe the ones driving the bus or encouraging those on the so just being a part of it really with that, or those who really want to take a step earlier, Like you guys said in your classroom, what can you do? I think you were talking about that that very first control segment there. So you've led initiatives or kind of like a shift or you've evolution of thinking along the way. For a principal sitting in their office or a teacher who's listened to this and they say, I'm in my classroom, I really get this, but what do we do now? What is that? What does that leadership move for them? Yeah? I love it. So here's the fun thing you asked this question. I was actually on Zoom this morning with two different groups. I feel like we're doing this well. The first thing that that that the leaders in these districts did is they said, I'm not going to be the only one doing this. I'm going to form a team and we're going to do this together. You know, you're talking principal, assistant, principal, counsel or teacher leaders some teachers. You know, some schools call it their leadership teams. Some schools call it their guiding coalition. They're grading task for us what do you want to call it? But they're form they're former team and say we're going to do this together, all right, two different districts. I was on zoo with today, like we're doing this all right, and with that team, they're trying to do things in a specific order. It's not exactly linear, Jim, but there are some important first steps. Okay, now I'm gonna zoom out for a second. I get these types of phone calls and emails literally every month. Somebody emails and says, hey, talents here, you're the grading guy. Can you tell us, like, you know, what should our report card look like? Or can you tell us like how should we wait our grade book ninety ten, ninety summative, ten informative or whatever you know? And those are all great questions, those are all important. But what I want to say is is that's hopefully not the first question you're asking. I gotta go back to doctor Super Brookkark, doctor Tom gus Keelers. They're like, you know what, the. First question a leader's got to ask themselves is what purpose do we want our grades to serve? Or convention? Right? So like we just got to talk about that in the previous segment, right, we want to go it's not about point accumulation, it's not about compliance. It's we want our grades to communicate learning in relation to the state standards or whatever. So like the practical deliverable of all that is to say, here's the purpose of grading in our school. The best leaders out there, they know the mission, envision the school, and they're living it out words on the wall. If I can use a phrase, I know you know, Jim Witchman. All right, So we got to have that same mindset when it comes to Grady. All right. So here in Iowa, there's a convenience store called Cases, all right. And so here's the deal. If Adam's wearing his you know, his school district's logo right here on his quarter zip as he's filling up his Toyota Corolla at the gas station, and somebody else on the other side of the pump is like, hey, I heard your school district is doing something different with grading Adam. Like any educator. Autimile to just tell them on from one side of the pump to the other, like here's what we're doing and why. And it starts with that grading purpose statement, So that leader has got to be thinking. I got to rally my staff around this collective agreement around what purpose are grades going to serve in our school? That's the a very first step, all right, And we're gonna do that with a team, and then we're eventually gonna roll that out to our entire staff to get them involved, asking questions, all that fun stuff. I mean, there's all kinds of other stuff after that, Like, you know, we've got a great purpose statement. Now we're gonna have like a you know, grading policies in our school, like how we're gonna handle those reassessment things we just talked about, how we're gonna handle homework, all that important stuff. But first, what's the purpose of grades in our school? Step number one? I'm assuming if we don't have that down path, you don't move forward. You've got to get that down path. Yeah, if we don't have that, we're gonna have all kinds of like misalignment, like why are we doing retakes? Why does our grade book look like that? Right? You got it. So here's the thing. It just took me right back to one of my worksheps I do is I try to talk about common language, common experiences, right, I mean you don't know that because but that's what I do. So I'll put a picture of popcan on the on the screen. What do you guys call that? Some call it soda, some call it a pop Put a remote up there? What do you call that? A remote? A clicker or a dial? So they all get all these different things. A shopping cart. Do you call it a shopping cart? You call it a buggy? They call it buggies in the South. It's really crazy to me that. So you go all that. They're like, what's the big deal about this? So when I'm talking about grading and it's not the same thing as everybody else, it gets confusing. So I will put up there, what about this purpose of upgrades? Does everybody have the same purpose of grades? And it's really quiet, the purpose of a teacher or the role of a teacher really quiet. We go back to the purpose of assessments quiet because they're all looking around thinking how about a discipline referral? And it still stays quiet, and we start talking about all this. What you just were saying there is if we can't get a line as a system, think about the frustration we're causing our children yep, and their parents. So this kind of goes this leadership concept goes right to a shift or you're thinking and something you can control. We don't want to have the conversations because you can get a little messy. But it's more about why we're having the conversations is what we're doing. And I think, Matt, you do a great job, but we just define it. We don't care, just define it. Come up with a common definition with that. Yeah, it's it's an exercise to go through to like to unify or understanding of why the heck do we even put stuff in the grade book? Right? And that conversation I think many educators they want to have and others while it might be uncomfortable, it needs to happen in the school if we're ever going to move away from this compliance earning focused schools and classrooms. I really think deep down many of us don't really want. Agreeing that conversation the other day with an administrator too, that was talking about, you know, how to continue to move this forward because you know, we're at a stage of my school where we're kind of hitting some bumps in the road. We're not quite getting the traction we're looking for. And I think this was a great point. He said, at the end of the day, we're never going to be able to actually get this for parents to understand it until their kids can explain it to them. That's where it's going to start and go. Yeah, and we can't get our kids to understand it if we don't understand it right, if we're if we're using that different language, they're not going to pick up on it. And again, I just know for my own kids coming home, heck, I was the principle of their building, right okay, and they're sitting here trying to explain it to my wife like, I don't know. I can't do that. You know, we we weren't good enough at that time for them to be able to carry that weight of This is the why behind it, this is what we're doing. I get it. I get what I need to do. I understand my own learning, all of those pieces that go with it. It's going to have it starts with us, but it's gonna have to flow through those students got to flow through. I mentioned the previous school, I was a principal that we did evolve tow one hundred percent standards mindset, So everything was their standards mindfit set. What you just said is what happens. The teachers started in line, and it started with our literacy sixth grade literacy teachers. They still really started getting there in some of those hic they saw, like you know, the question how many things do we have to have in the grading book? And all those things that go in there, they started messing with and then we started talking and then they started asking the questions, like I said in our break, can we get away from the grades because we're trying to tell people that help their parents how their kid, what their kid has learned, and what they need to learn, and then we have to convert that to a grade that really doesn't reflect on their students learning. And I thought, whoa, that was powerful, and they started going. But the way they taught, they made the language common, and then it happened in other subject areas and content areas, and then we have a movement. Then we have a wave. They can go home and they talk to the kid, They can tell their parents about I need to get this in my essay, so to speak, because or a composition, whatever you want to say, because I'm missing this, whatever the case is, and when they can have that conversation. That's why I don't have I didn't have. We didn't have phone calls that were tearing us apart. It was just just a couple of questions I just need to answer, and the parents were wonderful, wonderful, But it started with the communication. Like you guys said, what the stupid is? Well, the staff had to get it clear first. Then we brought the students along, but we made it authentic in our instruction. It wasn't about grades. Kids would come to us and say it's sixth and seventh grade. My mom said, I have to get a B or at A. I don't know what that means. Interesting, but that's what they're their lowest level of training as the parents are experienced. So we have to help and that we out to ask the right questions. They're not condescending, but just real questions. Within that absolutely yes, but it all starts with that definition of coming up with common language. That's for sure. Then go well. Leadership is about staying the course because sometimes it can be wavering. And you know, we always have those systems where you know, what's what's the principle read this summer and that's what we're going to do, I know, right, So one of the things I always guaranteed is we're going to operate as a standard mindset, so we're not changing and it's going to be that way. And we stayed that course over and over again within that and we're going to head into our last commercial here with kind of that thought process in mind. We're gonna come back, we're gonna wrap it up, gonna catch up on what's coming up in the next segment with doctor Townsley's up next. How we can reach out to him. This is what he does, This is his passion. If you weren't able to pick up on it, I'm not sure what you were watching there. All right, What a way to start twenty twenty six, which even just saying that's kind of scary in itself, but what a great way to start it. I mean, that's more than even just a proficient way to start that. See what I did there, right, We're exceeding already with you in this room today. So doctor Matt Townsley, thank you again for sharing your expertise with us today. And unfortunately we try to keep this show about to this length and I think we could spend. Days and days and days. Continuing to talk with you and you would still have a lot there. But Jim, we've covered a lot of ground today. Can you do us a quick favor recap a little bit on what we can control, what will shift our thinking, and what you can take to lead as those takeaways for our listeners before we close up today. What I like about this segment is the recap can go in any of the categories because it just fluid. It's so intertwined within that. So I'm going to try to recap within that. So the control part, it's just really remembering that we can control that the timeframe there, well, we can't control with the time frame that the kids learn, but we can control the fact that we're going to allow them to learn at their pace, within reason, within limitations, and within our structure that we have. And we also have to understand that there's not a one size fits all within that again, something we can control that practice for shift, I think that was the cleanest one to really kind of dig into, is moving from earning to learning earning point learning to learning, So we're stop chasing points to really chase in the learning and the only way we can do that can happen is if we get really crystal clear a way we want our children to learn. And it doesn't mean for percentages, it doesn't mean points. It's about the actual tangible standard or whatever that your district decides or determines within that yea and then finally within the lead, it's really about the purpose the intention. So I know that there's a lot of educators sometimes that are getting on the Hanster wheel and they're just trying to get through the moment, get through the day, get through the whatever it is, kind of losing our purpose. We can do something about that with our leadership, whether it be a teacher leader, individual classroom or a principal superintendent of just really defining what is it that we're doing. And in the absence of that, we're like floating all over the place and we're confusing children, we're confusing the staffings, colleagues, and think it's really frustrating. So back to lead, it's very simple grading for purpose. What's your purpose statement along that, take the time, make the time to do that. And I stress to the listeners out there, we got three people here that will help out you reach out and if we can't, we don't know the answer, we're going to step into it. And Adam, I know you can probably get into this a little bit so before. Sorry about that. If our listeners want to know more about a portion of this segment, we can lean into it. We'll get the Good Doctor back on and we're going to we'll lead right into one of those segments. Yeah. Absolutely, And that's kind of what I was hinting at there, is that. I mean, we're just you're just scratching the surface. Let's be honest, doctor Townsley, And it's not as easy as we'd like it to be. Unfortunately, it just isn't. This is hard work. It's very hard work. I mean, we are talking about we are talking about changing decades, decades of the way things were done and the way most of us grew up in that and started our careers in that. It is it's tough. It's tough work. So yeah, we're just scratching the surface. And you're exactly right, Jim. There are people out there that can help you. And that's the thing. It doesn't have to just be your job. It doesn't have to be your challenge in my classroom or just amongst my team, there are people out there that are able to partner with you and to move forward, which is just awesome. That's great, Doctor Townsley. What is next for you? I know you do a lot of this work and continue to teach and develop the next line of teachers and educators out there coming out of the great University of Northern Iowa. But what else she got going on? Yeah, twenty twenty six gramp twed to continue supporting schools out there. We've got a couple of leadership teams here in Iowa I'm working with to help them go from Hey, we know that grades need to look differently in our school, to start developing like a grading purpose statement and start to figure out how to support teachers in their school to start thinking differently about grading. We've got a big standards based grading conference coming up here in Iowa in June, so reach out. If you're going to be in the area in June, bring your leadership team. We can help you with some of these ideas we're talking about here today. Also, if you're looking for resources and all that type of stuff, hop on Google type all things standards based grading, All things standards based grading. I just updated that part of my website over the holiday break, and lots of great resource in their podcasts, articles, books, all kinds of stuff to click through and access to really continue building your repertoire if you will, of what all this looks. Like and what it can look like in your school. And honestly, just like you guys, just you know, answering emails and phone calls and people that are reaching out saying, can you, you know, just talk to me for five minutes, can you appoint me in the right direction. That's what I love about being education. Like, it's not it's not some competitive thing. I mean, if you call me up and Jim Wishman's the guy, I'm just gonna like send you to Jim and say, get fired up and have Jim talk with you. He's better at a bunch of stuff than I am. And so like I'm just here. We're just here support people along the way. Yeah, flattering, that's a big thing. We're all good about stealing from each other and sharing with each other anyway, That's just the point, Like you said, it's not a competition. At the end of the day, we all want what's best for all kids. Making about the kids. I really like that making about the kids, that's for sure. Hey, Anamal, you got going on say that again, Jim, what do you got going on to the next month? Uh, January into February. Yeah, so I got a little break from a grad class, which is awesome to get us start that back up towards the end of the month. Here. Whether I think this is a good idea or not, my health thinks this is a great idea. But I referee high school basketball, so I'm going out two nights a week and you know, having people either agree or not agree with every moment that I that I have during that day. But I'll tell you what, it's fun. It's a great time. I enjoy got a good crew of people that I work with and get a chance to see kids out there doing something different for once, you know, trying to do something that they have a passion in. And it's fun to be part of those evenings with everybody out there. And again forces me to run a little bit, forces me to get out there and exercise, So I enjoy that part of it. I've always want to ask this to a referee at them. Well, it's like a tight game at the end I know the coaches adrenalinees just pumping, and the student and the athlete to drive. What's it look like to be a referee in a tight game at the end as you're adrenaline pumping. What's it like? Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. You can feel that part of it. It's funny because you'll you'll hear people and I'm guilty of that too, especially when my team's won, like, oh, they should have blown the whistle. They didn't want to blow the whistle at the end of the game. I'm telling you right now, if there are officials out there that can do that, they are a way better official than I will ever be because I am just concentrating from first whistle to last whistle to try to get the call right. I can't think about that stuff, to be honest. It's like, yeah, I guess the game's over now, Okay, all right now, we're ready to move on. We just got to make make the call at the right time. But it is it's fun and it's it's exciting to be part of that moment that people are going to remember. I just had a couple couple of nights ago. I had a kid turn around and right at the end of the quarter. Just I mean it was a hail Mary heave and it just right on through the net and the place erupts and it was it was fun. I guarantee you that kid's gonna remember that moment for a long time. It was really neat. Did you wave it off? Oh no, he mailed. He nailed that, sucker. I would not have been a very popular person that night. Yeah. Hey, yeah, I want to be very clear on something. And you said you were taking grag classes. I believe the word is doc classes. Yeah, that is true. That is Yeah, we're we're not talking greg classes. I've got some work to do. But yes, that's that's a goal. I'm going to get to that goal. We're going to finish that up. So I can throw a couple of letters and at the end of my at the end of my name, so you bet. So I got to I want to do a jim you traveling up to I'm going to be in about ten different states in the January February working with people. We talk a lot about standards on that, but we're really talking about common language, common experiences, and so forth. So it's tiring, but it's also that invigorating that you get to work with people who are really trying hard to be their best selves and just helping them. They all have it, they all have the talent. It just is kind of clearing waste from the mud. We know that. I do appreciate being that excitement and helping people along the way. That's for true. I also want to give a shout out to Matt for this reason. He's one of my fellow very loyal bow tie wearing a gentleman. I didn't know whether to wear a bow tie today or the Northern Iowa right. We didn't want to show up our guests, So I get that I didn't want to show up. Bow Tie brothers. Yeah, bow tie brothers. And it's always on there. And I appreciate Matt how you always reach out throw a little little, you know, a little note on my social media post about keep at it, good up, Jim. I just really do appreciate that. I also appreciate that you being on the show, not just tonight, but I know you're going to be on there in the future. That's for true. Appreciate you. Speaking of future, Adam, we got some we're going to take a little different turn another you and I grat is going to be on there, mister Bobby Long Bobby is that we talk about teacher leaders along the way. Bobby's been an education gosh, I think it's been about thirty two thirty three years within that worked at Muscatine High School, Muscatine Middle School. He sees special education. This guy sees it all and just a ball of laughter with and it coming. So I'm I'm looking so forward to seeing what kind of incitements he has about how what we can control is something we can shift and and maybe something to lead along the way. And I believe he's also a doctor Townsley fan too. I mean, there's so many of them. Take take a number for that crew. That's awesome taking numbers right right? Well, good, So that's February we got. I'll tell you what, It's gonna be a busy month. It's gonna fly by, we know it does. This year is flown by already. But you know, hopefully you still got your your New Year's resolutions when we get back here to record again for February, and we'll see, we'll see if we're all sitting there or not. But that's that's great. Well, I'll tell you what. Everybody you can find Matt's work, his book, making grades matter. We're gonna put all of that stuff in the show notes before we go. Real quick though, doctor Townsley, can you give us a quick you know, where do we find you? On socials? How do our people get in touch with you? And if they've got a grating question, you're the first person I would be talking to for sure, So how do they how do they get a hold of doctor Matt Townsley man? Like I said before, all things seniors based grading type that in Google, that will get my one of my websites or just www dot mctownsley dot net, also mc towns in all the major socials, blue Sky, Twitter x, whatever you want to call it. These days, all that fun stuff, some message wherever we want to do. Love to connect and you know, reshare your good stuff going on your school too. I think that's one of the awesome things about social media is you know, seeing the good stuff that Jim's doing out there, You're seeing the good stuff that you know somebody else doing out there and giving them a high five on social media. So mctowns dot net or mc townsy on the socials love it. I love it, I love it. Thanks again, really appreciate you being on here tonight. Jim. Thanks to you again. Good to see it listeners. Thanks for joining us on Control Shift Lead. Go out there and make a difference everybody. We really appreciate it. Good have a great January. We'll see you back here in February. You've been listening to Control Shift Lead, brought to you by Inspired Edification and AWB Education. We're glad you joined us for today's discussion on empowering school leadership. To dive deeper and explore more of Jim and Adam's work, find us at www dot AWB education dot org. Thanks for listening. We look forward to connecting with you again soon